|
Post by Jake on Mar 31, 2006 17:31:33 GMT -5
Because it was not designed to carry the weight of the muffler.
In stock form, the muffler was held in place with two screws, and gromets, so it had little or no motion, just a little "give" for frame flex and vibrations. In the picture, the muffler is attached to the pipe, and the rubber hangar is horizontal. It can't carry any load that way. Therefore the head pipe is left supporting the entire weight. That is a lot to ask of the flange that attaches the head pipe to the engine.
|
|
|
Post by MuddnMason on Apr 1, 2006 13:27:19 GMT -5
Okay, how would you attach that muffler? It looks fairly well supported to me.....
|
|
|
Post by Jake on Apr 1, 2006 16:58:36 GMT -5
Same idea would be fine, but secure the metal bracket in a position such that the rubber strap would be vertical, so that as gravity and bumps pull downward on the muffler, it would be supported. Either this will help, or I'll confuse you worse. img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/caseyq/100_0720.jpgThe clamp is good, but allows zero movement, where as the factory asbestos (bushing?) does allow for a bit of movement. Although you wouldn't know it to try to separate the two. Probably a good way to do this since the muffler is now supported only at a single point. Were it more rigidly affixed (more attachment points) it would probably be better off with the same type of marginally flexible seal. This part I'm good with. img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/caseyq/100_0725.jpgimg.photobucket.com/albums/v626/caseyq/100_0724.jpgThe size and position look fine. No worries there, IMO. img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/caseyq/100_0722.jpgThis is the one that bothers me. The metal stap hangs down, and attaches with a pin to the rubber strap section. Then the rubber strap section attaches to the (creatively but effectively used) clamp section with another pin. Those two pins swivel. Picture grabbing the end of that pipe and pushing downwards. The rubber hangar will rotate downwards several inches before it "catches" the muffler and holds it. That doesn't sound like a lot, but as you ride, that whole exhaust, from the tip of the muffler, all the way to the engine, is supported only by the two studs in the cylinder head. The solution to the issue (or most of it, IMO a satisfactory amount of it the issue) would be to relocate that same universal hangar such that the rubber strap was vertical. Now, when you imagine pushing down on the exhaust pipe, the weight goes directly on the strap without having to shift the exhaust out of place first. Another thing that comes to mind (maybe) as I'm looking at this. I would imagine that this is a (relatively) loud pipe on this application, since I believe (but am not sure) that it was meant for a multi-cylinder engine. I would think that with the size of the outlet, that it would produce negligable if any effects on performance to install a 45 or 90 degree turndown at the end of the pipe. I would suspect that a turndown and clamp (an extra three to five dollars?) would diffuse the noise a good deal. That part is only speculation, but I'd love to hear back from anybody who tries it.
|
|
|
Post by MuddnMason on Apr 1, 2006 20:29:19 GMT -5
The pipe in question here is the FO14. It is supposedly not as loud as an HMF, nor that of the AC3 tractor pipe. The difference in the two tractor pipes is due to the baffling (sp). The AC3 does not have many if any baffles. The FO14, from what I understand is very tolerable, which is what I want, a pipe that will give me good power gains without being obnoxiously loud.
As for the method of hanging and supporting, I see what you are saying about the angle of the rubber bushing bracket thingy. I figured that was what you were talking about in your other post, I just didnt see where it could move in that position. Once you mentioned the pins, "I see said the blind man!"
However, I do have one qualm with your assessment. In the first picture link that you referenced, why would you want movement at this particular point? This is where he has clamped the header pipe to the exhaust. If there is movement, it would create an exhaust leak right?
Also, since I dont have my Foreman or my service manual in front of me at the moment so I can look for myself, is there no other brace/bracket to support the weight of the header pipe other than the flange where it connects to the motor? Wouldnt another solution here be to put a clamp/hangar on the header pipe and connect it to the frame somewhere if there is not one?
With your permission, I'm going to repost this discussion in that thread on HL, to hopefully prevent him and others from major damage to the motor.
|
|
|
Post by Jake on Apr 2, 2006 8:09:31 GMT -5
In the first picture link that you referenced, why would you want movement at this particular point? This is where he has clamped the header pipe to the exhaust. If there is movement, it would create an exhaust leak right? You know what? I may have been smoking opium or something, (Don't ever listen to me when I'm smoking opium) becasue my first assumption was that the pipe slides right on to the head pipe, when in fact, a good section of the original muffler (or rather it's integrated pipe section) is saved. I guess you'll keep the factory joint afterall. If and when you get your hands on the manual check section 2 (Frame, Body Panels, Exhaust), somewhere around page 16 in mine, might be a page or two off in yours. If you get your hands on the bike, it's the joint right over the left hand (drivers side) foot peg, just behind the colored plastic. I'll still stand by what I said about the hangars being horizontal. the joint allows only slight movement, and nowhere near enough to accomodate that much movement from the muffler, and once the joint "bottoms out", same thing - the whole weight of the exhaust on the front studs. Also, since I dont have my Foreman or my service manual in front of me at the moment so I can look for myself, is there no other brace/bracket to support the weight of the header pipe other than the flange where it connects to the motor? Wouldnt another solution here be to put a clamp/hangar on the header pipe and connect it to the frame somewhere if there is not one? It would be a good solution, but I'd go to the engine, not the frame, due to the fact that the engine is designed to move in it's mounds. (That's a big part of the reason the muffler needs bushings and flexible mounts, as it bolts directly to the frame, not the engine). The closer the support gets to the head, the more "bend" there has to be to accomodate the same movement. Logistically this could be a little tough, finding a couple of bolts and a light but sturdy enough steel piece to reach out horizontally) but probably very doable. Personally, I'd still go with hanging the pipe at the back adequately not to need the head pipe supported again, but mostly because I think it's easier and just as good to do your work back there. With your permission, I'm going to repost this discussion in that thread on HL Yeah, sure. I forget when or why I decided to stay out of that thread, but if you want to put it there, have at it.
|
|
|
Post by redstroke on Apr 3, 2006 19:18:12 GMT -5
Well I am going to use the existing brackets on the old muffler and weld them on the new muffler. But first I am going to do some testing. The 450 head pipe is around 1.625" I think, I cant remember, but it is not 2" thats for sure (FO-14). So a adapter would have to be utilized. I picked up a FO-14, FO-4, and a IH 3 (or 4 cant remember again). The 14 is straight through no baffles, the 4 has 1 baffle, and the IH has no baffles but is the same diameter as the pipe. The IH may not lend itself to much more flow than stock, no real way to tell unless I run it. I just picked it up to compare, because the 14 looks real big and loud. I am going to get the DB tester out and test the three pipes to see how much louder they are at half throttle no load. If the 14 isnt crazy loud then I will weld that one up. I will try to compare the three mufflers, stock and my buddies cobra utility which isnt that quit, and see what I come up with. I will work on some pics too.
I ordered the snorkkit, clutch kit, steels and frictions, 135 jet, and a k&n with pre-filter. I will take a look at the clutch the spring are going on, anything I should be looking for, to replace the weight they call them it is like $112.00 or so for the set. The decompressor is getting it too when I am in there. I also bought new nuts at $8 a piece just for insurance so they can be restaked properly during install. Any comments?
|
|
|
Post by TechForeman on Apr 3, 2006 20:01:07 GMT -5
when you get the Db levels do you mind posting them along with the stock to kinda get a feel of how much louder than stock? and pics would be good too.
|
|
|
Post by redstroke on Apr 4, 2006 11:36:48 GMT -5
Yep I should have all the data and a finished product this weekend! I am just trying to put some numbers to these pipe so everybody like you and me can make a good decision on what pipe to go with, now if I only had a flow bench to verify the flow rates of all these mufflers, I guess the SOP meter when riding the 450 will have to do. I might do some timed 0 to 30 runs and see if the pipe improves acceleration at all though.
|
|
|
Post by MuddnMason on Apr 4, 2006 11:41:54 GMT -5
Looking forward to seeing your observations.
|
|
|
Post by Jake on Apr 4, 2006 17:15:12 GMT -5
Well I am going to use the existing brackets on the old muffler and weld them on the new muffler. But first I am going to do some testing. The 450 head pipe is around 1.625" I think, I cant remember, but it is not 2" thats for sure (FO-14). So a adapter would have to be utilized. I picked up a FO-14, FO-4, and a IH 3 (or 4 cant remember again). The 14 is straight through no baffles, the 4 has 1 baffle, and the IH has no baffles but is the same diameter as the pipe. The IH may not lend itself to much more flow than stock, no real way to tell unless I run it. I just picked it up to compare, because the 14 looks real big and loud. I am going to get the DB tester out and test the three pipes to see how much louder they are at half throttle no load. If the 14 isnt crazy loud then I will weld that one up. I will try to compare the three mufflers, stock and my buddies cobra utility which isnt that quit, and see what I come up with. I will work on some pics too. I ordered the snorkkit, clutch kit, steels and frictions, 135 jet, and a k&n with pre-filter. I will take a look at the clutch the spring are going on, anything I should be looking for, to replace the weight they call them it is like $112.00 or so for the set. The decompressor is getting it too when I am in there. I also bought new nuts at $8 a piece just for insurance so they can be restaked properly during install. Any comments? When you take the clutches off, a penny in the primary drive gears makes a fine holder. "Crack" the primary (top clutch), crack the secondary(lower clutch), then the nuts will come off as you're ready. When re-installing, go in steps. Snug one, then the other, then tighten one, then tighten the other. I agree that new nuts are a worthy investment. I can't say that I've never reused them, and they havn't come off, but it really doesn't feel good. When you remove the primary clutch, a two or three jaw puller works nicely. If you use a torque wrench when you re-install it, it'll work nicely again. If you hammer the new nut down with an impact gun, you may get it tight enough to require proper tooling to remove it next time. The secondary one comes right off. Clutch weights (for the primary or centrifugal clutch) should have scary thin lining around the outside face. It may take some careful cleaning, but you'll see at the leading edge, middle, and trailing edge, there's a "thick spot", that looks to be more a part of the attachment process than anything. The spec is measured at each of those "thick spots", and is 2.0mm or 0.080 inches. (it really does leave a very thin amount remaining, but the new ones aren't exactly thick. The clutch kit springs are a bundle of joy to get in there. At least the first one is. Once you get the hang of which way to hold the pliers, the next ones are easier. I find it easier on the bike, which holds the clutch firmly, but YMMV and I'm sure you'll get it.
|
|
|
Post by redstroke on Apr 5, 2006 16:12:03 GMT -5
You guys have any advice on lift/long travel kits? Perfex or HL lift kit? Can they be used together or not. From what I read the perfex moves the pivot point of the shocks? How would that increase travel, the shock travel is still the same? The lift just simply extends the mounting points of the shocks with brakets.
|
|
|
Post by MuddnMason on Apr 5, 2006 17:06:26 GMT -5
I am not sure exactly how the Perfex long travel works. I just know that it makes your foreman ride a lot better, and a lot less like a 2x4 board. There are many people who use the Hl kit on the front and the Perfex on the rear.
|
|
|
Post by TechForeman on Apr 5, 2006 21:20:05 GMT -5
the hl lift keeps the same angle but lenghtens the shock. so it kinda keeps the same ride. the Perfex moves the shocks to a more upright position to make it a smoother ride. when it pushes the shocks further up the a-arms. so it gives it a new angle. the furhter up the a-arm you go, it lifts the bike and the father down it goes, the more it lowers the bike. am i makin any sense?? let me know. you can run them together. one on the front and the other on the back or vice versa. but you cant run the hl and perfex both on the front/rear.
|
|
|
Post by redstroke on Apr 6, 2006 16:58:03 GMT -5
If the perfex gives you better ride and the same amount of lift why would anybody mix and match, the perfex would be superior?
|
|
|
Post by MuddnMason on Apr 6, 2006 20:31:53 GMT -5
It doesnt give the same amount of lift. If I had it to do over again, I would get the Perfex just for the ride quality.
|
|